SAIFEDEAN AMMOUS – “THE BITCOIN STANDARD”

Dr. Saifedean Ammous is the author of the Bitcoin standard. The bestselling book on Bitcoin translated into 30 languages. He is also the author of the newly released Fiat standard and the forthcoming textbook principles of economics. He teaches courses on Bitcoin and economics with his online learning platform.

Saifedean.com and host the Bitcoin standard podcast. Dr. holds a PhD from Columbia university, a master’s from the London school of economics and a bachelor of engineering from the American University of Beirut. I’m looking forward to discussing all things, Bitcoin Fiat, and the current state of the crypto market with the man himself.

Good to see you again, welcome to the run GPG podcast. Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure talking to you, David. Yeah. Uh, you know, I’ve been, uh, really looking forward to getting you on the show because you know, there is a lot going on with Bitcoin, crypto blockchain, and you’re not just an expert, you know, with a respected, uh, viewpoint and opinion.

Uh, but we’re at a point where the top. You know, digital assets and of course, Bitcoin are not just timely and relevant, but I think it’s also important for a lot of reasons. You know, we’ve got regulatory issues, we’ve got inflation, uh, collapsing, currencies, and so much more. We’re somewhat at a pivotal crossroads in a lot of ways.

Would you agree with that? Yeah, I definitely agree. I think it’s, uh, it’s been a massively, uh, eventful last couple of years, and I think on the monetary front, we’ve had a relatively quiet last couple of decades with relatively few examples of hyperinflation and relatively low inflation in most advanced economies.

But I think that’s beginning to change now. I think we’re back to the ugly days of the seventies and eighties with a lot of inflation. Um, in many places all over the world, and I think it’s only going to get worse, uh, looking at the way that governments have been behaving. So it’s a, it’s, it’s a very top, very timely topic to be talking about right now.

Yeah. A hundred percent. And for those of you just introduced to you and maybe your books for the first time, you do such a good job of explaining things in a really simple way. So to lay the groundwork for the meat of our discussion, um, what is your definition of. My definition of Bitcoin is Bitcoin is software for running a decentralized network and the decentralized network has its own currency.

And what it does is it allows you to take part in a payment network that is peer to peer. For me, the most interesting aspect of Bitcoin is that the payment network has its own currency. And that currency is the least inflationary currency that we’ve ever had. The supply is growing, but it’s growing at a constantly decreasing rate.

And it’s rate of growth tends to zero eventually, and then it stops growing and supply and the supply remains fixed. So it’s the first asset that we’ve ever had in human history that will remain, um, strictly irresponsive to demand, no matter how much demand increases for Bitcoin. There’s no way of making more than before.

Then the 21 million that, uh, should be made and nobody has a way of changing that. And this is why I think, um, it’s, it’s unique, um, uh, very different from all other kinds of digital currencies, because all the other digital currencies, uh, are centralized enough that you can see how the supply can be changed, but with Bitcoin, nobody can change the supply.

And that for me guarantees the credibility of the monetary policy. Yeah. And that, by extension of that, you know, you talk about. Hard money assets and why Bitcoin is the hardest currency created and you expand on that. We’ve always used whatever is the hardest thing to produce as money. If you look at any particular place, people will always use the thing that is the hardest to make as money.

And so historically in, you know, in the world. Markets throughout history. They’ve always tended toward the use of metals and then precious metals. And then in particular gold it’s because the supply of gold is the one that increases the least as a response to demand. So gold supply increases at around one and a half to 2% per year.

And that’s why gold has the lowest supply growth rate. And that’s why basically, uh, gold became money. The fact of all over the world, by the end of the 19th century. So in, when it comes to money, the hardest money always wins. The hardest money ends up holding onto its value for two reasons. The first thing less important is the fact that people recognize this hardness and that they choose to put their money.

More important than people recognizing it is simply people playing out economic reality. So people who put their wealth who save their wealth and things that are easy to produce will just witness their wealth dissipate as the producers of that thing make more and more of it and then bring us value down.

So if you put your money in copper, if you put your money in iron, in any kind of commodity, that’s easy to produce. It’s not going to last either. The good itself is going to fall apart on loses value or people who can make the good are going to make increasing quantities of it and bring the price of it down.

This for me is why Bitcoin is fascinating and very interesting because it’s a form of money that’s available for everybody in the world. And it is also the hottest money that has ever been used. Yeah, I appreciate that breakdown very much. And I do want to talk about, uh, the book for a minute. Uh, the Bitcoin standard, the decentralized alternative to central banking, uh, as mentioned it, you know, it’s a best-selling groundbreaking study on the economic.

Bitcoin it’s really become required reading for those who are educating themselves on Bitcoin. It’s always at the top of the list when it’s, when you, when it comes to recommendations, the book was, uh, one of the first explaining Bitcoin’s value proposition and the implication of its unique properties.

Um, did you expect the book to become as popular as it is or. Surprise you how I think it’s become now. It definitely surprised me. I mean, I was writing it as an academic. I thought it would be an academic book. I did not expect that to get, um, popular with, uh, general readers, but I’m glad that it has, you know, half fleets and, uh, uh, people from all over the world read it.

So I’m very glad that it’s been translated to like 30 languages at this point. Pretty incredible. I did not expect to have that. And, years later, what’s the, uh, the most common remark you hear about the book, you know, when someone meets you. Well, there’s, you know, there’s the one where, um, I bought Bitcoin and it’s worked out great.

So thank you for that. It’s just, you know, get a lot of these. And then I think the, maybe even more common than that is the discussion of time. Preference. People really liked that. A lot of people told me it changed their life. Completely. Just reading that without, you know, regardless of what Bitcoin did.

And regardless of the impact of Bitcoin, just thinking about time preference as a concept is extremely, uh, I think extremely powerful. And, um, I, I was always surprised at how few people, um, spoke about this. Um, so. Put it in my book because I thought it was really important. And I’m glad that a lot of people seem to agree.

And, uh, you call Bitcoin the immaculate conception. Uh, can you break that down for us? Yeah. Um, the thing about Bitcoin is that the way that Bitcoin was started really is very unique from day one before. That didn’t really have an admin. It only had the users. So Satoshi Nakamoto, the guy who made Bitcoin was only around for a few, a couple of years at the beginning.

And then he disappeared. And since then, nobody has been able to be admin of Bitcoin. And so it had this kind of perfect start where someone anonymous did it and it continued to operate what a lot of people tried to change it, and none of them was able to change it. And so we have this really unique Frankenstein almost where, you know, somebody made it, but now nobody can.

We’ve made this new thing that nobody is able to make, nobody’s able to take charge of. And so it just exists out there as a neutral protocol that anybody can use, anybody in the world can use, but nobody can control. And that’s an extremely powerful idea because if nobody can control it, Everybody can use it.

And that’s where it’s real power lies. Everybody would like to be the one who controls the money supply that everybody uses. But it’s very difficult if you are the one to convince everybody to use yours and not theirs, but everybody can agree on using something that nobody else controls. And that’s where it’s very powerful.

Yeah, absolutely. And it brings up an interesting question because Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency. It’s arguably so valuable that nobody really wants to spend it. Right. So in fact, you hear about, uh, less and less Bitcoin supply on exchanges most are hobbling, right? Has Bitcoin become too successful, um, compared to it’s designed by Satoshi.

No, I don’t think it’s too successful. I think it’s, um, it’s succeeding, right? Um, it’s doing its job, you know, it’s, it’s impossible from a form of money to go from zero to a $1 trillion in an orderly, slow manner. If people realize that this thing is going to go up and it’s going to go up a lot, it’s going to have to have a lot of volatility on the way up.

So, uh, before it gets used widely. A lot of people think of Bitcoin as being an alternative to visa or PayPal Bitcoin. Isn’t a similar to credit cards and it’s not a replacement for credit cards. Bitcoin is an underlying asset that can be fit into any kind of other payments. So what you need is not just, you know, switching from visa to Bitcoin, what you need is to switch from the dollar to Bitcoin.

And so you can’t just flip a switch and switch completely. You still have to. Pay your employees and dollars, and you still have to accept payments from your clients in dollars. But what happens is over time as your cash balance in Bitcoin, you can start accumulating a small cash balance in Bitcoin and in time as it grows and other people start accumulating more cash balances in Bitcoin, more trading opportunities emerge between you and other people, and you can start exchanging Bitcoin for other goods.

And so. But it’s not something that can happen. It’s not like switching from apple to Mac or Mac to apple. It’s, it’s a, there’s a liquidity question that’s involved. And in order to solve that people need to accumulate more and more and more cash balances in Bitcoin. That’s what’s happening. You know, the amount of cash balances held around the world in Bitcoin have gone from zero to a hundred.

Dollars in about 12 years, you know, we need to do another 10 trillion, I think. And then Bitcoin will become a pretty common mechanism for payment, I think. Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, that explanation makes sense. So, you know, with more and more, you know, mass adoption, institutional adoption, and some of the estimates we’re seeing, like, can the Bitcoin network handle onboarding a billion people over the next five years or what needs to happen?

Yeah, I think the network itself can handle it through the lightning network. The lightning network has basically onboarded El Salvador over the last five months. So in September El Salvador started using Bitcoin. Everybody downloaded a wallet. It is working, it’s working fine, getting on the network itself again, as I said, you know, um, is, is like going from apple to Mac and that’s not the difficult part.

The difficult part is in liquidity and that’s something that’s going to take time. It’s just, people have their cash balances and their incomes and their expenditures denominated in dollars. And they have to extricate themselves from that into a Bitcoin world. It’s a gradual process, but I think, you know, the earlier you do.

The better off you will be. And so there is a strongest center for people to start getting into that. And I think a lot of them are,

um, here’s a question I’ve been thinking about now. Perspective on this. What happens when block rewards are gone? Like when all the Bitcoins been mined, have you thought about that? Yeah, I think it’s a little bit of a, um, a fundamental difference in how different people look at economics. So from the Austrian perspective, It’s uh, you know, what determines whether things are brought onto the market or not is demand by consumers.

So if consumers want something to happen, entrepreneurs find a way and make it happen. The Keynesian more mainstream perspective on economics likes to, um, likes to posit things from a mechanical perspective as if it’s like an. And as if these things you don’t need to fit into neat mathematical, uh, patterns in order for them to work out, according to the formula set by dead economists back in the day.

So from the Keynesian perspective, you know, we look and we see, or I will right now. Transaction, uh, the, uh, block rewards are what is rewarding, the miners and that’s, what’s securing the network. If the blocker wards runs out, then what’s going to secure the network. Well, no, from an Austrian perspective, you realize that what’s securing the network is the fact that people demand the network to be secure and they pay for it.

So currently you pay for it through inflation. Primarily the increase in the supply of Bitcoin is devaluing your Bitcoins, but it’s an inflation that you’re willing to take. Because it’s keeping the network secure. Um, if that stops being the case. Do you want to use the network? You want to move your coins.

You know that there is no conceivable scenario in which people demand Bitcoin and want to hold Bitcoin and value holding Bitcoin and value transacting with Bitcoin necessarily because you can’t just hold it. You have to buy it and sell it. There’s no conceivable scenario in which people value this, but then.

I don’t find a way of paying the miners to provide it. It’s kind of nonsensical. It’s almost like saying, you know, uh, you know, the fishermen and the town, people all meet in the fish market every day. And if we just shut down the fish market, then everybody will start because there will be nowhere for them to meet.

Well, no, the fishermen have the fish and the people of the town want to eat the fish. They’re going to find another place and they’re going to meet and they’re going to buy the fish. You know, there is no conceivable scenario in which the fish rots, while the people go hungry. Just because they don’t know how to meet each other.

They’ll figure out how to meet. It’s not an insurmountable technical problem. And in the case of Bitcoin, the solution is very obvious. They’ll figure out how to meet in a sense that the users of the network will pay transaction fees that will get their transactions cleared. And that’s really new. How the network ultimately works.

The transaction fees are the reward for. Of the miners to mine, honestly. And so the reason, you know, the way that the security model works is that if a miner doesn’t want to mine, then they, uh, you know, they, they lose money. They’re just wasting that equipment. If they wanna make money back on the equipment, then only the investment that they’ve put into it.

The only thing that they can do is give the network what it wants and the network one. Correct transactions that are valid and they don’t want somebody who messes with a supplier with consensus parameters. So miners have to satisfy, uh, the users of the network and, um, in order to get paid and they will get paid.

Um, now what, the level of transaction fees that is going to be necessary for the network to remain secure is unknown to me. I can’t claim to know, you know, how much we’re going to be paying in transaction fees 50 years from now. We’ll pay enough. How do I know that if the transactions don’t work, people will pay higher fees in order to get their transactions through.

There’s no conceivable scenario in which, you know, Bitcoin continues to succeed. And so we have the equivalent of, let’s say $10 trillion stored in Bitcoin today, but the people who own $10 trillion. Can’t afford to pay for the miners to keep operating securely. It makes no sense in my mind. Yeah, that was a fantastic illustration actually.

Uh, I’m going to use that one. I think it’s good. Um, I do want to ask you about, uh, the concept of, you know, Bitcoin handlers, Bitcoin maximalists versus the rest of the crypto community, because this is like, this is so common. You know, topic for conversation, you know, Bitcoin Maxis, you know, they believe the world’s binary, Bitcoin, Bitcoin Maxis, you know, they believe the world’s binary, Bitcoin and Bitcoin and no in-between.

Um, but I need to ask you, like, what are your thoughts on the continued development of the crypto? Decentralized infrastructure, you know, smart contracts, uh, you know, earning yields on defy, the proliferation of NFTs, basically. Like why should we stop innovation at, you know, Bitcoin is sound money, ignore everything else.

Like have it, I guess the question is, have Bitcoin maximalists evolved their thinking at all? Or is it still the same? Um, no, I think, um, you know, it’s a loaded question, Safe. It’s a very loaded question. And it’s, um, it’s presented in a way where, you know, I can only answer by saying, yep. I’ve changed my mind and you’re right.

And I’m wrong or no, I am closed minded. So given that choice, all right. But, you know, um, I’ve also been getting called closed-minded about this and many people like me have been getting called about this for years. And I don’t think, uh, you know, uh, I don’t think we’ve seen anything to suggest, um, that there’s anything different in this.

I think ultimately. The case against coins is multifaceted, but ultimately it really all goes down to the fact that this is all digital stuff. It’s not copper and gold and a national currency with central banks and governments and armies and militaries behind them. This is all. Zeros and ones on people’s computers.

This is all of these digital currencies. Aren’t like that. And for me, you know, the reason that I was skeptical about Bitcoin for many years, when I first heard about it is the fact that I could not, I knew that, you know, if you study monetary history, you know, that the incentives to mess with the money supply are always so big that they will always eventually overcome.

Any kind of system that is put in place to protect them. So everybody who’s had the ability to mess with the money supply eventually has if the possibility existed for anybody anywhere at any point in time to change 21 million, I’m no longer interested in Bitcoin. If that possibility existed with Bitcoin, I wouldn’t really be interested in Bitcoin and that possibility exists with Bitcoins.

And I think it’s very, very clear that that possibility is there. In fact, you know, this is the, um, I credit Peter Rashard who says this, you know, Started taking Bitcoin seriously. Once it’s had something like SegWit two X, once we see something contentious happened with. Where the people who are behind the glass and effectively with every single point, there is a marketing team behind them.

And, you know, getting those 10 people into one room and putting a gun to their head is enough to do whatever you want with the protocol precisely because they’re run like, uh, companies and that’s great. That’s very efficient and it’s great for marketing. And, this is of course the one area where it’s going is infinitely superior to Bitcoin because Bitcoin has no marketing team, but has no CEO, no.

It has a premium of Bitcoin who would benefit from investing in Bitcoin marketing. So all of these outcomes, they have great, they have great marketing, which means they’re able to command a lot of attention. And they’ve been able to piggy back on, uh, the reputation of Bitcoin and on the way in which Bitcoin operates.

Throughout all of these years by presenting themselves as an alternative to Bitcoin. That’s why I can’t find them. Interesting. And I think what they’ve done is basically they’re selling securities. It was just in contravention of securities law, which in my mind is fraudulent, you know, tokens that are getting pumped under false pretense, you know, and it’s all basically buzzwords and excuses for launching tokens and basically trying to benefit from monetization, trying to get some of that Bitcoin number.

Juice and pretending that, but they can’t have that because they can’t have the fixed supply. So for me, that renders everything else. Um, moot, it’s a fascinating breakdown. I know, I know, you know, most Bitcoin maximalists and advocates, you know, they make the, uh, the moral argument right. About why Bitcoin is better.

I’m not sure if moralizing money’s the right approach necessarily, but I do appreciate that perspective. And speaking of Ethereum, what are your thoughts? Uh, or broad stroke thoughts on the current NFT explosion in popularity? Um, I’m, I’m not concerned with it. I’m not interested in it. I don’t think, um, I mean, generally I’m just not a person who’s into collecting things.

I barely own, I don’t like to own stuff in general. I’m a person who only buys things like that. And I, you know, I made this change in my life about 10 years ago, and it’s been one of the best things that I’ve done.

are you a new real estate agent or thinking about getting a real estate license you have? So you’re going to want to ask about the greater property goose agent scholarship. Y paid for the cost of the course yourself. When the greater property group will subsidize the cost for you, make sure you reach out and get all the details on the greater property groups, agents, scholarship program,

the Fiat standard, the debt slavery, alternative to human civilization. This is the book here. Um, here’s the book. You talk about, um, the world’s earlier shift from the gold standard to today’s system of government backed Fiat money. And you outlined that Fiat standards, purpose, and you examine how Bitcoin will affect that over time.

So is this everything that you didn’t say in the Bitcoin standard? What, like, what was the Genesis behind this? I wanted to examine the question of how Bitcoin is going to rise. You know, what the, so in the Bitcoins, then I make the case for why Bitcoin is likely to continue to arise, but very little on how it’s likely to rise.

I want to write this book so that I can give somebody who has basically no background knowledge in computer science or in economics the ability to understand how this thing works. That’s a great way to approach the Fiat system. You know, there’s been a lot more written about the Fiat’s system and then Bitcoin Bitcoin provides us a great analogy to look at and the way that it borrowed the Bitcoin standard seemed to resonate with a lot of people.

So let me apply the same thing to studying Fiat money. That was basically the driver for getting into the Fiat’s for writing the finance standards for me. Yeah. And through, uh, you know, the comparisons in the book, you mentioned that Bitcoin could be our next step forward. And then you say this is really interesting, uh, rather than, rather than a messy hyperinflationary collapse, the rise of Bitcoin could look like a debt Jubilee and an orderly upgrade to the world’s monetary operating system, revolutionizing global capital and energy markets.

So I guess after reading that was Satoshi, a time traveler. And did he invent Bitcoin to save. I don’t believe in time travel. So I’m going to go ahead and boldly say no. The key thing is once I started looking at Fiat, like Bitcoin, I started thinking, all right, how does Fiat get mined? And that’s the door to the rabbit hole.

Once you go down that rabbit hole of that question, how do you mind? So started thinking about that critically. And you realize the way that you mind Fiat money is by issuing loans. Every time a new loan has been made new Fiat money has created a hundred gold standard older Bitcoin standards. You know, if you want it to take them as a game, these monetary systems as a game they fund.

The winning strategy is collect as many gold coins as you can collect as many Bitcoins as you can with Fiat as the opposite, collect as many liabilities in Fiat, as you can borrow as much fat as you can get a short position that Olympia the winning move on Fiat, the way to protect yourself from the Fiat system.

Is to short and you shorted by borrowing as Bitcoin rises. And as the value of Bitcoin rises, more and more people start holding on to Bitcoin rather than getting into debt. So instead of buying your house on debt, you stack Bitcoin, and then you just buy your house with your Bitcoin and now you don’t have debt.

So what’s that doing to the supply of the U S. It’s reducing the creation of us dollars, but what’s going on is that Bitcoin is allowing us a technological solution that, um, obviates the need for the Fiat system. As the FIAR system reaches this kind of limit where everybody’s already up to their eyeballs in debt, and we need more debt in order to make this work.

We can have this world in which the value of everybody’s liabilities is declining as Bitcoin is rising, and everybody’s accumulating savings in Bitcoin. And yes, there’s going to be a significant redistributive effect. But it’s likely to be a soft landing because anytime you start witnessing your local currency and your local Fiat falling apart, you just switched to Bitcoin.

You have the, you know, you have the lifeboat ready for you whenever you need it. Yeah. That’s well said. W w what’s the likelihood that a serious banking crisis happens in the next few years in North America? Is that something we have to worry about? Um, Fiat, it has been a perpetual banking crisis. Banks are always insolvent banks.

Can’t meet their obligations and they’re constantly on life support from the central banks. We don’t get so many of these very big crisis anymore because the central bank is always ready to bail them out. So it’s this slow bleed where everybody in the world is watching the prices of everything around them go up and everything is becoming less affordable for everybody on the planet.

Unless you are in the chosen few who get low interest rate loans from your local central banks. These people have their quality of life constantly improved by. Because they’re the biggest borrowers and they borrow at the lowest interest rates. Whereas the vast majority of the population was just being, getting worse off, are suffering because of it.

A couple of questions left. In your opinion, uh, why has the crypto market and Bitcoin taken a crash? I mean, there’s a lot of discussion about this. We know, you know, why that’s happening, you know, those that are informed in your opinion, what do you think is happening? I think, you know, short term within the scope of anything less than a year and even movement in the price of Bitcoin is just Bitcoin being Bitcoin.

So. Pinpoint specific triggers, but, uh, there’s just a very large amount of volatility in the short-term. What matters is that in the long-term look at it. Where was the price? Five years ago? So early 2017, Bitcoin was around 1000, $200 this time of year. I think, um, it was around a thousand bucks. So it’s still up 38 X in five years.

So when you look at it from this perspective, um, you know, a lot of things happened over the last five years. You know, Bitcoin has done a 40 X in five years. That’s true. And I mean, people have to look at the, the, you know, the whole, like the long-term, you know, chart, not just what’s in front of them.

That’s what people tend to do is just, you know, they’ve looked at the last few weeks and, uh, they lose their minds also to, you know, the crypto exchanges. They encourage volatility, right. With all the, uh, the leverage you can have on there. It’s crazy. You know, it’s absolutely insane what you can do with, you know, some of these all coins, but, uh, okay.

The wrap up here. What is Saifedean, I must do. Um, well, I like to play football. I don’t play it that much now because I have kids to take care of. I like to watch football as well. Um, and, um, are we talking like Americans, like NF. Soccer. Okay. Yes. I’ve kind of figured. Yeah. Yeah. Well, fanatic, uh, been obsessed with this game since I was a kid and always dreamed of becoming a footballer.

Um, but you know, at least now my book is, uh, Leia is liked by a few professional football. And so it wasn’t a complete failure. No, exactly. Well now we have athletes, you know, uh, only wanting to get paid in Bitcoin, actually. You know, I don’t want to ask you about, uh, current future projects. Maybe tell us about the principles of economics.

What’s that? Yeah. So when I finished the Bitcoin standard, the first book that I started working on next was the principles of economics, which is a textbook in economics. And I started working on it before the Fiat standard. And then I was working on the two of them at the same time. And then I finished the standard earlier, but, uh, the principles of economics are almost done.

It’s on its way to completion. And it’s, it’s, it’s the book that I wished that I had when I was a university professor. Teaching economics because, um, the current crop of textbooks are horrific they’re Keynesian and they’re, uh, they get everything wrong and it’s, uh, it’s, it’s excruciating to try and teach what’s correct mile going through all of this Keynesian nonsense.

So, um, I decided I’d like to write the book that I wished was there and I just, um, you know, the fact that a lot of. The Bitcoin standard. Unlike the way that I explained the sophisticated economics concepts and simplified them, made me want to do it with this book to just rewrite this book and write this book in a simple way.

So that it’s written in an eye. You know, somebody, somebody could study it for a university course, but somebody could also sit down and read it in a couple of, uh, evenings. Maybe a few more than a couple of evenings and, um, come up with a very good understanding of the most important concepts in economics from the Austrian perspective.

Awesome. Now it is, you know, besides Bitcoin, uh, is there an app or a piece of technology that you cannot live in? Like, is it the weather app on your phone? Is it something like that I could live without? Um, pretty much everything. I guess email might be the most important one, but if I would choose my favorite Twitter, like if I could take, if I could only pick two things from the internet, I’d pick Twitter and email.

I think everything else is more or less time-wasting. Okay. Final question. Final question. This will make you think if you could have dinner with any three people in history, pastor presence. Who would they be and why? Um, um, well, I definitely say Satoshi Nakamoto. That would be one. Hmm. I’d say maybe a moderate orthopod would be another one.

I’d definitely be interested in having him. Yeah. Murray Rothbard and Muses. I’d say moderate orthopod, Ludwig, Von Mises, and Satoshi Nakamoto. Wow. What a, what a, what a dinner table? Uh, fantastic. What an awesome discussion today. Uh, it was, it was an honor to have you on the show, uh, to discuss what are the most relevant topics, as we said at the beginning of the discussion, you know, so timely.

Uh, so good to get your perspective. Uh, thanks again for taking time. Where can people find you or where do you want them to go, uh, to connect with you or follow you? What do you need there? Yeah, my, the site saifedean.com is where you can find my books and you can subscribe and become a member of my online courses.

I teach economics courses online. After I left my university job. So educator online. So you can go to my websites if saifedean.com, sign up and get access to my courses and books. And, um, you can also go on my Twitter at Saifedean, where I’m pretty active and I enjoy Twitter a lot. And, um, you can also find The Bitcoin Standard in 30 languages, all listed on my website.

And it’s also available on Amazon as is The Fiat Standard. Okay. Thanks. Safe. All right, man, take care. Thank you, bro.