I’m super excited to welcome back to the show. One of the most compelling and interesting people I’ve ever interviewed. Known as the biggest money earner in the mob since Al Capone, Michael Francis grew up as the son of the notorious underboss of the Colombo crime family. Michael’s story is nothing short of extraordinary.
He’s the only high ranking figure from a major crime family to walk away without protective custody and live. Today, we’re thrilled to welcome Michael back to the RUNGPG podcast again to talk about his riveting life and the very intriguing parallels and applications between the world of organized crime and the mafia and entrepreneurship and business.
Also looking forward to finding out what he’s doing now with some current projects and all that he has on the go. Michael, it’s a pleasure. Welcome back to the RUNGPG podcast. Well, thanks, David. It’s good to be back again. I know we had a good time last time. I’m sure this one will be equally as good. Yeah, and listen, it’s really good to see you.
I know we were talking off camera. It has been a couple of years since we last sat down on the show. You were in your 60s then. You’re now 72. And you look even younger. Both you and Camille look younger and correct me if I’m wrong, but your father, he died at 103 years old. Am I right there? That’s true, that’s true.
Yeah, so. My first question, what’s the Franzese family secret to achieving longevity and looking so young? Well, I’ll tell you what my dad’s secret was. First of all, they got good genes. He was one of 19 and every one of his kids, siblings I should say, died in their late 80s, early 90s. So we do have some good genes, but my dad never smoked, never drank, never did a drug, never got obese, always watched his weight.
And, you know, very, very strong constitution, I would say. So I don’t smoke. I drink wine. That’s about it. You know, never to excess. And I try not to gain too much weight. You know, that, that’s all helpful. Leave a clean life and surround yourself with nice, healthy people. David, I don’t have a chance in my house.
You know, all my daughters are all fitness freaks. My wife, it’s a lifestyle for her. They don’t let me get out of hand. So that’s very helpful because I could eat. Let me tell you, I love food. Well, you know, so you have to join the mafia for clean living. I, I get it. listen, since we last spoke, I want to get into it.
since we last spoke, you released your book, mafia democracy. please tell our listeners, our subscribers, what’s it about and why did you decide to write it? You know, David, going back, when I finished my last book, I’ll make an offer you can’t refuse, about seven years ago, I had an obligation for Hopper Collins to do another book, and they wanted me to do a political book.
They said, you got any ideas? Immediately, I said, absolutely, Mafia Democracy, that’s the title. They give me an advance, I go back, I start writing a book, I’m into it about four chapters. And I turn to my wife and I say, why am I doing this? I’m exposing, you know, the, the hypocrisy in the government. I said, I don’t need this.
Nobody’s bothering me. Go back to my publisher, given the advanced back. And I don’t write the book cut to a year and a half, a little more over a year and a half ago. I felt I had an obligation to write this book because I’ve never seen, you know, such a situation in our government that we have now. So mob like, so Machiavellian.
So I write the book and, I got to tell you, you know, it’s, it’s right down the line. It’s not Republicans, not Democrats, not anything. It’s just exposing our government system for what it really is. And it’s more like the mob than anybody could ever imagine. And, you know, David, the satisfying thing are the comments.
Michael, now I get it. Now we see it, you know, because I did a lot of research. This is not a fluff piece. I made very good examples, both sides of the aisle and people are getting it. And that’s all you want to do because, you know, our country is in dire straits. We’re in trouble here. And I have seven kids and I have seven grandchildren and I want my country to be what it will be for them.
what it was for me. And it’s, it’s a great country, America, even though I was on the wrong side of the law for a while, you know, I’m here and, and, I appreciate it and I see us in real trouble. Yeah. Very interesting. I appreciate your breakdown. I think it would be helpful if we talk just for a second about the fact that you’ve mentioned how Machiavellian the government has become.
And I know that the mafia operates under a Machiavellian philosophy as well. Can you break down the concept of what that is, what Machiavellian leadership. actually is and explain how it applies to both worlds. Well, yeah, and anybody that’s paying attention will understand what I’m saying now.
Machiavelli had many, much advice for a prince in how to maintain control of his kingdom going back to the 1600s. And when he told the prince was this, okay, the promise made today is a necessity. The promise broken tomorrow is also a necessity. Remember that. So, but understand this concept. He said, Prince, in order to stay in power, can do anything he needs to do.
He can lie, he can steal, he can cheat, he could even kill anything he needs to do because the main thing is to maintain power. However, to the outside world and to the public, he always must appear to be honest, upright, and have integrity. And you could just take that phrase, that bit of advice and apply it to our government.
And if you’re paying attention, David, I’ve never seen a situation, especially now with social media and video and everything is captured a minute after you say it, it’s all over the place for everybody to see. I’ve never seen the amount of lying, hypocrisy, dishonest in this. People don’t even care anymore.
They know it’s on camera. They know they’re caught in lies. They don’t even care. It’s gone to that level. And it’s really very, very destructive. And, and that’s Machiavelli to a T. You know, all our government, many of our government officials here, they come into Congress as blue collar people. They make 200 grand a year.
They go home as multimillionaires. How? I know how. But that’s not what this was set up for. And believe me, I have so many chapters and examples in the book, and people are really outraged over it. They really are. Yeah. And it is, you know, really interesting times. And speaking of government, you were indicted seven times, I believe, right?
Seven times, which is currently more than Donald Trump currently. Right. Yeah. So, so I love hearing you talk about this. What are your thoughts on him and his legal challenges and what do you think about the recent events regarding Donald Trump? Well, you know what, put Trump aside for a second. The problem here is this, David.
weaponizes the Department of Justice, the FBI, law enforcement to go after its political enemies. We’re in a lot of trouble. That’s that’s not a republic. That’s not a democracy that turns into anarchy, and that’s the real danger. Whether Donald Trump, you know, I don’t know if he’s innocent or guilty of some of these things, but the fact is that they’ve weaponized, they’re trying to eliminate Donald Trump.
They’re afraid of him. They don’t like him. They hate him. So they weaponize and go against him. But you know, taking it a step further, they’ve done the same thing with social media. They’ve intimidated social media to a point to silence people that are speaking negatively about their agenda. Very dangerous at all.
It’s weaponization of the strength and power of the federal government to go against its enemies or what they conceive to be their enemies, people that don’t agree with their agenda. And it’s happening to a large degree here in the United States. And it’s very dangerous. You know, when I was on the street, David.
Look, I knew the FBI did some things. I know they framed my father. There’s no question about it. I’ll take it to my grave. I knew they overstepped their bounds. But you know, people can sit back and justify like they do with my dad. Well, your dad was framed on this case, but he got a lot away with a lot of stuff.
Now, even though that’s not right. You can’t justify that. You can’t say in your head, well, I got him for this, even though, you know, he got away with a lot of stuff that I can’t prove. I can’t prove it, but I believe he did. You can’t do that. It’s dangerous to allow the government to do that. But people can justify, well, you guys were criminals.
You were criminals. Okay. But I said, remember this, when they start to do it against the criminals, they’ll start to do it against people they don’t like, and that’s exactly what’s happening now, and it’s so obvious, and it’s very dangerous. Yeah, Donald Trump was Mr. New York in the 80s and 90s, right? did you know him personally, and what do you remember about your interactions with him?
Well, I met Donald once briefly, with Roy Cohen, the attorney. We were in a private club in Manhattan, and I knew Roy very well. And, I happen to be in the same club and he momentarily introduced me to Don and we said, hello, and I said, I wasn’t any long term relationship. And then, you know, my Russian partner at the time and I, we bought some condos in Trump towers when it was being built, but we didn’t deal with Trump, we dealt with other people, but we gave him, you know, 6 million in cash at that point in time.
so, you know, we kind of backdoor dealt with him, but, you know, look, Donald had to deal with people and, you know, with us because of the unions. Every contractor in the city had to deal with the unions and we control them. So he was no different than anybody else. And Roy Cohen was an intermediary at times because he represented us.
He represented Donald, you know, but that was doing business in New York. You could have been Helmsley, Gutterman, any major building. I had to do the same thing. You know, listen, I’m not going to comment on his innocence or guilt. I always say this and I get, you know, beat up because there’s such a hatred against this guy.
It’s like, I’ve never seen anything like it. I said, look, I’m not in love with Donald Trump. I know there’s certain things. I think he’s a bit narcissistic. There’s a lot of things that I think he shouldn’t have done as president. He wasn’t really presidential. in fighting on Twitter and calling names and all of that.
He was entertaining, but it wasn’t presidential. But I will say this, and I’ll say it in front of anybody to anybody. He was a good president. His policies were good for the United States of America, and that’s all I cared about. And you compare his four years to what’s this disaster that’s going on now?
It’s not even close. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It’s always interesting to get the perspective of someone who was there like yourself. moving along though, moving along, something else that happened since we last spoke Ray Liotta, who portrayed Henry Hill and Goodfellas, he passed away and you were portrayed in Goodfellas as well as we all know.
Looking back now, can you share your memories of Henry Hill and perhaps some thoughts Ray Liotta. on Ray Liotta’s performance. Well, you know, I’ve always said this. I mean, I knew Henry fairly well. And the best thing for Henry’s image was Ray Liotta playing him in Goodfellas because Henry never looked that good.
Trust me. And, you know, look, they made him out to be a bigger figure than he actually was. There’s no question, David, you know. Sadly, he was an alcoholic and he had a drug problem by his own admission. I mean, you know, I’ll give him that credit later on after, you know, he started to get in a public eye. He did admit to that.
I can tell you this. He never walked in through the back of the Copacabana unless he was with. Paulie Vario or somebody of stature, you know, Henry wasn’t that guy, but you know, they take dramatic liberty in these films and, you know, I’ll tell you one story, I was in a, a club one day called channel 80 out in the island and actually Paulie Vario had a, an interest in the club, right.
But it was the hottest club on Long Island. They used to go there a lot. So one day I walk into the men’s room and, I’m. passing by the men’s stall and I see four feet in there. Now back then you didn’t see that. I don’t know if you see it now. I don’t club much, but I’m saying what the heck is going on.
So I kicked the door open and who’s in there but Henry Hill and another person very close to me that I know, and they were doing coke together. So I grabbed a hold of Henry because the word was out on Henry at that point by Paulie. If you see him doing drugs or anything wrong, he was to get killed. And I said to him, Henry, I had an affection for Henry because he had given me some bets on the Boston case when, when, you know, they were doing that whole scandal with Boston’s, basketball team, you know, Boston college.
So I said, Henry, if I see you back in this place again, I’m not going to tell Paulie, but if I see you back in here again, I’m going to have to let him know. So don’t ever come back in here and don’t ever associate with this person that was in the store with you ever again, ever again. And that was that.
And that was, that was the last time I saw him until, you know, I saw him in Terminal Island Prison. Okay, well, you don’t want to tell us who the person in the stall was. It was a very close relative of mine. I’ll leave it at that. Okay, gotcha. Okay, I don’t want to push it too much. Yeah, Terminal Island.
Interesting. I didn’t realize you both had the same prosecutor, if I’m not mistaken, right? Like you, he entered witness protection program. You did not, but had the same prosecutor. I didn’t know that. Yeah, Ed McDonald was our prosecutor. He’s the one that flipped Henry. He was the head of the Organized Crime Strike Force at that point, Eastern District of New York.
Yeah, he was the one that flipped Henry. And Henry was in the program while he was in jail. And by mistake, by mistake, he was on separation with me and all the other guys that were, you know, just in general pop. And by mistake, they brought him to Terminal Island. And there was 15 guys in there, and he wouldn’t have lasted a day if anybody really noticed him.
But as soon as he saw me by accident coming out of Chow Hall, he went and PC’d up. He put himself in protection, protective custody, and then they shipped him out. But that was a mistake by the Bureau of Prisons to put him there. Okay, around that same time, I do want to get into this a little bit. Rudy Giuliani is someone who’s synonymous with the mafia, having prosecuted many cases in the 80s, the RICO Act, etc.
Was he obsessed with the mob? And what was your experience dealing with him before we get to your book? What do you remember about Giuliani at that time? Well, my interaction at that point was when he indicted me on a major, RICO case. I was a lead defendant. I had 15 co defendants. And the day of my arraignment, he didn’t try the case.
He had his deputies try the case, but he was there for the arraignment of all of us. And, gave me a million dollar bail, and then when he was kind of walking out of the courtroom, he told me and my lawyer, he said, if Frenzy’s convicted on this case, I’m gonna give him double what his father got. And that would have been a hundred years.
And that’s the kind of time they were giving mob guys back then, you look it up. And, he was out to get us, no question. And he admitted this later on in a, show that, I did with him, you know, just about a year ago. So he wasn’t, he wasn’t a friend back then. Fortunately, I was acquitted in that case, found not guilty.
But yeah, you know, I believe Rudy was genuine at the time because what happened, Joe Bonanno had wrote a book and Rudy Giuliani being Italian, Joe Bonanno kind of looked at the mob that. it was a big family and he was a father figure and according to Giuliani, it was really offensive to him the way Bonanno wrote that book.
And he also said that in that book, Joe Bonanno laid out, laid out the commission racketeering case for him. He gave him the blueprint for it and he admits that and he says it. So he was, look, let’s face it. You prosecute, you know, the Mexican cartel, okay, you might get a little publicity. You prosecute some gangs on the street, okay, it’s good for you.
You prosecute the mob, the mafia, and you’re in the headlines every day. That’s career building. We’re the most colorful guys, we’re the ones that make the news. You want to build your career, you go after us. And that’s what happened. Yeah, it makes sense. Now, this is what I find interesting. Giuliani prosecuted you.
I guess you could call him your enemy at one time. Surprisingly, he ended up writing the forward to your new book. So, how did that happen and what can this transformation in your relationship teach all of us? Well, you know, Joe Pagliarulo, who has a big radio show, a friend of mine, he said, Mike, would you come on the show with Rudy?
And this is like 30 years after the indictment, right? And I said, yeah, I’d like to actually. So we go on and surprisingly, Rudy says, you know, I’ve been following you for 30 years, and I think your transformation is genuine. He said, I don’t think you can cover it up for 30 years. You’re not that good. I said, well, thanks, Rudy.
So that’s how the conversation went. And then when I wrote the book, my publisher said to me, you think Rudy Giuliani would. Right. The forward. And I said, well, hey, now you’re stretching it. You know what? I said, Hey, I’m not shy. Let me ask him. Well, he did. He read the book, wrote the forward and, he did a tremendous job on it.
So, I mean, I’m really thankful for that. You know, I don’t like what they’re doing to him. I really don’t. I think the, again, he became an enemy and they’re going after him. And I think it’s, it’s more persecution and prosecution, but this is what we’re living with today. Yeah. Yeah. Again. Interesting times. again, something along the similar lines, you know, you had an infamous history with Sammy the bull, right?
And I did hear that your last sit down even got heated with him. I believe you’re now friends though. You’re now friends. If I’m not mistaken. Again, what lessons can we learn from the evolution of that relationship with him used to be an enemy and now you’re friends. You know, David, I don’t, I don’t see it, productive in any way to, you know, hold, hold grudges and, and get into all of these spats.
There’s so much of that going on on YouTube. It’s not productive. It makes us all look bad when we’re knocking each other to try to get views. And you know what? On YouTube, that’s all it is. You know, people will deny it, but they want views. So they figure if they get into controversy, end up in views. So Sammy and I, I mean, we did get heated because he said certain things.
I said certain things and you react, you know. But afterwards we talked about it and said, you know, is this productive? Sammy, I’m not judging you. You shouldn’t judge me. We were two different families. You did your thing. I may not agree with some of the things you did. You feel the same about me, but do we need to let everybody in the world know about that?
And he agreed. And same with all the guys on, on YouTube, you know, that I just don’t see the back and forth being productive at all. And I won’t engage in it. I won’t, you know, a lot of stuff. Look, a lot of things are said about me and on YouTube or social media, you can say anything you want, you know, there’s no restriction, you can call anybody, you can say anything, you can tell the truth, you can fabricate.
So to get involved and engage in that is just not productive and I’m not going to do it. Yeah, it’s well put. very well put. And I, before we leave this topic, I do want to ask you again, in our previous interviews, you know, you did share your thoughts on John Gotti specifically, and you know, how his downfall kind of marked a noticeable change in the mafia world.
Can you just expand on your thoughts again on John Gotti and his significance back when he was in his, you know, when he was all over the place, right? When it was, you talked about the mob, it was John Gotti, his significance. Yeah, I want to make this clear, though, because a lot of people hold John Gotti responsible for the destruction of the mob as we know it, because it’s different now.
And I can tell you emphatically that’s not true. The destruction of that life was the RICO Act. Because the RICO Act put people away for a long time. It made a lot of informants because people didn’t want to go away for a long time. It expanded the law to a degree that I think is unconstitutional. and it was devastating for that life.
It allowed for forfeitures. It allowed to take union power away from us. It did a lot of damage. So it wasn’t Gotti. Now, was Gotti helpful? No. The same way, you know, a guy that I love and the guy that I believed in that was going to really benefit Italian Americans, Joe Colombo. Being that up front and being the boss of a family is not good.
It just brings too much attention on everybody. It gets the government more motivated and determined to do things. And I think that was John’s fault. That was his, his problem and his downfall. He snubbed his nose in the face of the government. And you just can’t do that and get away with it. They’re too powerful.
They have all the laws in their favor. They’re going to win eventually. And so, you know, in that regard, was he a good boss? You’d have to say no, you know, in that regard, because he was just too out there, too much exposure, brought heat on his family, and you just can’t do that and get away with it. You can’t.
John Gotti was responsible for the death of Paul Castellano, right? There was a lot of notoriety and coverage of that hit. What do you remember about that incident? Well, you know, we knew at the time that it was unsanctioned by the commission and that people were upset. I know Cingigante was upset. I know some of the bosses were upset that, you know, he just did that move.
You’re not supposed to do that. In John’s defense, I believe he really believed that Castellano was going to take him out, so he had to act first. And that’s part of the life also. Did he follow the right protocol? Maybe not, you know, but who am I to comment? That’s a desperate situation. Maybe he would have tried to follow the right protocol and it wouldn’t have worked out for him.
I don’t know. But anyway, it didn’t make him any friends. Not at all. You know, not at all. And, you know, that was part of his destruction too. No question about it. Yeah, you referenced the commission. The commission. what is the commission and when was it created and is it still in existence today? Well, I believe it’s in existence today to answer that.
It’s just that today people are so paranoid of being in the same room together that it’s very, very difficult, you know, for the commission to act as a body. So it’s done covertly. Messages go back and forth and this and that and that because it has to be. But the commission was started by Luciano, you know, way back when, when, You know, after he basically took over, I don’t want to call him the boss of all bosses, because at that point in time, he didn’t want that title, but he said, listen, you know, the, the bosses of all the five families of all the nine families actually, at that point throughout the country would make decisions for the body of Cosa Nostra throughout the country.
And it was a good move, no question about it. And they set policy and they had agreements. But remember this, you know, the boss of a family, he’s the boss. Nobody can really tell him what to do. So a lot of times I liken the commission to the United Nations. You know, there’s a lot of, a lot of talk, a lot of this, but at the end of the day, each country operates on their own.
They do what they want to do. And so that’s, that’s kind of what it’s all about. But, you know, in Gotti’s case, Chin Giganti back then, head of the Genovese, he was the most powerful guy in New York. It probably would have been better for him to run things past Chin because Chin was very upset when, when John pulled that move on Castellano.
So, you know, there’s a lot of back and forth and I’m, you know, I’m giving my perspective on it from the experience and knowledge I had at the time and, and the knowledge I have that, of that life, but hey, it is what it is. You know, if you’re comfortable talking about it, the number one question I get regarding you is whether you still fear for your life.
Can you share your thoughts on this question one more time for us? Yes. Well, you know, that was the prediction when I walked away from the life and I came out of prison. I mean, the FBI had me a dead man and it was all over the street that I wouldn’t last, I wouldn’t make it. But, you know, I knew there were two things.
And listen, I did sit down and talk to the government. But, you know, a fellow by the name of John Gleeson, who was Gotti’s prosecutor. It was very funny that he wrote a book and in the book, he said, frenzies took the government to the cleaners and, you know, David, I kind of manipulated my way through there.
I was trying to make peace with the government, but I would never, ever. Do anything to put any of my former associates in jail. That’s the promise that I made to myself. That’s what I told my dad. I said, dad, I’m doing this to preserve my family. I’m not mad at anybody. I don’t want to hurt anybody. And I’m not going to go to the level of pushing, putting people in jail.
I said, and you can relay that to junior and my bosses and, you know, people in charge and everything else. And for a while, people didn’t believe me, David, because nobody does that. When somebody leaves the life, all right, they’re cooperating with the government and the FBI did some dirty things. They put my name on the witness list of cases that were going up in New York because I could have heard a lot of people, but then the cases kept coming up and I didn’t show up and then they violate me on my parole after I did my time.
And I want to make this clear. When I took my plea, got a 10 year prison sentence, 15 million restitution, there was no cooperation. That was my plea. No cooperation whatsoever. I went in, I did my time, paid my fine, and worked it all out. But it wasn’t until later when they subpoenaed me for some stupid thing that was on that I sat down.
They said, hey, what do you guys want to know about me and this and that? Because they were interested in talking about me. How could I say it without sounding, I don’t want to sound egotistical, but… I knew how to manipulate my way through those things at that time. So, bottom line is I never hurt anybody.
Never hurt anybody. Nobody went to jail because of anything I ever told anybody. And so, over a period of time, people realized that. And again, I move out to California, you know, one of the dangers of that life, horrors of that life, David, you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into a room and you don’t walk out again.
So I said, nobody’s going to have a chance to do that to me. I leave, I move out to California, I’m 3, 000 miles away, I stayed out at clubs, I didn’t create patterns in my life. It’s one thing to walk somebody in a room. It’s another thing to send a hit squad across the country, try to kill somebody that’s aware of it and knows what to do.
I was very disciplined in my behavior back then until I knew things were pretty, pretty quiet and calmed down and everybody got it. And that took years. That took years, you know, and people say afraid now, nobody’s got an infamy now. Now I’ll tell you what I can’t do. I can’t go back into Brooklyn. And say, okay guys, I’m moving back into the neighborhood.
I wouldn’t last very long because I’d be snubbing my nose in people’s faces. Now, why would I do that? You know, it doesn’t make sense. So. You can say that. And then the second part of this, the overlying reason for this, David, you know, I’m a man of faith now, and I believe God had a different plan and a purpose for my life, and it’s become crystal clear over the years that He just had an arm of protection on me.
Yeah, and I’ve heard you mention you’ve just outlived and outsurvived everyone. Everybody. They’re all dead. They’re all dead. I mean, you know, 50 people on Fortune Magazine’s Wealthy and Most Powerful Guy, right? I was one of them. 48 of them are dead. Yeah. 49 are still in prison. It’s wild when you look at that, eh?
Very wild. You’ve got an interesting life, Michael. Um. I find this fascinating. I heard in a recent interview of yours, you were talking about Eleanor Cordero. Now, this was a time you actually feared for your life. Do you mind relating one of the craziest experiences you’ve had in the mob? Okay. Her husband, this is back when I’m a kid, I’m at 20 something years old.
Her husband was the major witness against my father in the bank robbery case. Okay. And wild guy, drug addict, absolutely lied. She, Eleanor, drove the getaway cars on the actual bank robberies. Well, through a whole series, because we could be here all day if I go through it all, I had the opportunity to meet up with her.
Because she had got into a conflict with her husband. He tried to kill her. He hit her with an axe, gave her 2, 000 stitches, and almost killed her, but she somehow got to a phone and called 911, and they came and took him away, you know, for a while. She survived that axe beating. Survived it. And you’ve seen the stitches all over her, right?
So the, I met her, you know, she, I go into the, it was all set up and I go into her Mustang behind a diner in Long Island. And the first thing she does is pull out a pistol, point it at my crotch and say, if you’re wired, I’m going to blow your blank off. And then she frisked me and I wasn’t wired. And anyway, that started a, a seven or eight month, most horrible time in my life, babysitting this woman, bringing her to court, taking her testimony, giving her lie detector test, but she was afraid.
She said, if my husband finds out about this, he’ll find a way to kill me. And if the FBI knows that I’m blowing the whistle on the frame, they’ll try to kill me. She was afraid of both. And so I had to hide her out, babysit her, and I gotta tell you, she was a horrible woman. Oh, God, David, I’m telling you. I actually went to see my dad once, and I said, Dad, as much as I love you, even you’re not worth what I’m going through with her, because she drove me out of my mind.
It was a tough situation, and again, got her into court, told the truth, lie detector test, framed my father, and the judge knocked it down, the appellate court knocked it down, so it was all for nothing. Wild story, Michael. Absolutely wild. Changing direction a little bit here. You you did mention that one of the reasons you joined the mob life, the mafia was to get your dad out of prison.
I I remember you telling this story quite clearly and I recently heard a story of how you tried to pay 2 million to help your dad help your dad out when he was going through his trials but it didn’t work and it made me think about asking you about corruption in the legal system. What can you tell us about that?
Cuz obviously it exists but specifically paying off judges and lawyers. Does it happen? You know, what are your thoughts on that? You know, David, it absolutely happens. It happens on a local level when you’re dealing with, you know, the local law enforcement and police. I experienced that when we had certain gambling games and things that we were doing in the city and Queens.
But with respect to my father, Yeah, I had the wherewithal to pay big money to get his case squashed on a federal level, and I couldn’t do it. David, I tried. I offered 2 million to the right people and, they wanted to help, but they should, Michael. We can’t get this done as much as they wanted to take the two million because I did tell him, I said, listen, there’s 2 million on the table, but I’m going to tell you this right now.
Don’t beat me out of it because it’s not going to end up nicely for you. And I really meant it at that time. And so they really put an effort. I mean, you know, this is political clout that I had put an effort into getting that case turned around. And I think because of the fact that it was a frame, they were just going to protect that and let my father die in jail.
That’s what they wanted. They wanted him to die in jail. Just couldn’t do it. Interesting as well, speaking of your father and the legal system, the witness protection program was created because of your father. Can you tell us about that? Well, a fellow by the name of Gerald Scher, who worked with the Justice Department at that time, he told a story.
He said there was a, a guy whose truck was, I believe, hijacked. And knew that my father was responsible for it and initially said something and then change the story and said, you know, frenzies is going to kill me. I’m not going forward with it. And it was then that Gerald sure said, you know what, we need to do something to protect witnesses or none of them were ever going to cooperate.
And he told us this came out of his mouth. So the witness protection program was created as a result of that experience that Gerald Scherr had with a case pending against my dad. Wow. What a history, Michael. Yeah. I was shocked to learn. As a matter of fact, my father didn’t even know that. I had to show him that.
He said, wow. You know, what else are you going to do with me? Unreal. Yeah. Very, very, very interesting. I asked you about your personal experiences. Some of the people I’m about to mention here, these are quick hitters. These were, this was in our last couple of interviews from a few years ago, but these stories, Michael, they never get old and we do have a lot of new listeners and subscribers.
I would love for you to break down some of these again because they’re so fascinating. For example, Frank Sinatra. you get asked about him a lot, I know, but you knew Frank Sinatra personally. Can you share your thoughts on him and whether he had connections to the mob or not? Well, yeah, I mean, I liked him.
I met him several times. I met him at the Copa Cabana. I met him in Florida. I met him, with Joe Colombo when we had the Italian American Civil Rights League and he performed. My dad knew him well. He, you know, I met everybody at the Copa back then. And that was the place where my dad was. You know, front and center there.
Julie Padel and him were good friends. And, and so I went there many, many times. Did he have connections? Sure. He did. I mean, I believe it was Lucky Luciano that financed his career early on. His, his family and Lucky’s family both came out of Sicily. So they were Sicilian at that time. but you know, I, I, I always try to preface this because it always sounds like.
You know, this guy wouldn’t have had a career if it wasn’t for the mob. Yes, he was helped because they wanted him to succeed. But Frank Sinatra was a great talent. And sometimes it’s like nepotism in that life. You need to have a push in order to get where you gotta get. It’s, it’s, it happens the same today.
I mean, there’s nothing different. That’s just life. So was he controlled by the mob? Favors were done for him and he did favors in return. And, you know, that’s the way life goes. So. Interesting. Now, I do want to ask you about this because recently, there was a secret service agent who’s doubting the official explanation of JFK’s assassination now, right?
There’s a secret service guy who was on site and he’s questioning this and your take on JFK has always been fascinating to me because you’ve expressed the belief that the mafia may have played a role in the assassination of JFK. Can you explain that theory and your reasoning again? Yeah, David, and understand this.
I have no horse in this race at all. It doesn’t change my life, and I’m not writing a book about it. I’m not trying to talk about it, but when you ask, I’m honest. I’ve heard my entire life, my entire life, from people in the know that were there, that this was a mob hit. We were intimately involved in it.
You know, when you go back to, what’s his name? It escapes me. Now, the, the guy that killed Oswald, you know, he was, closely associated with our guys in Chicago. He was around Al Capone at one time, you know, he was one of us. You don’t come out of the clear blue sky and kill the Patsy that pulled this thing off.
And I believe I’ve heard it my whole life from people in the know, bosses in the family, my father, you name it. And there’s no reason most of the time guys on the street. Like my father, they don’t ever want to admit to anything, but you know, I was one of them, so they told the truth. But, I believe this, this classified documents that are regarding the JFK hit that classified, you know, since the hit and every so often the president is going to unclassify them, Trump was going to declassify them, I should say.
And then all of a sudden they stop and they won’t do it. My belief is. that those classified documents will show the connection with the mob. And our government doesn’t ever want the world to see that a sitting president was able to be taken out by the mob. And the CIA probably is connected to that also.
So this is a big conspiracy that took place there, a horrible mark on, you know, the U. S., United States and our government. So I think they’ll keep it under wraps, but If you had to ask me if somebody was pointing a gun to my head and you know, the truth, a lie detector was there, I would have to say mob hit based upon everything that I was told and I know.
Jay Edgar Hoover, he famously claimed there’s no such thing as the mafia and you know exactly why he made that statement. Yes, and this is one of maybe other reasons that he would never admit it. He would never admit that the mob existed until he was forced to, basically by Robert Kennedy, and because of the fact that the big meeting in Appalachia revealed a lot of things, and the investigation that happened after that, when all the guys got together, all the bosses, you know, in Genovese.
held that thing. he, he was forced to. But prior to that, he never wanted to because one thing I know for a fact, he was in a place called a store club in Manhattan that Frank Costello had a piece of. And, they actually had that place wired and bugged. Not for Hoover, But because they were trying to get dirt on celebrities so that they can have something over the celebrities to do their bidding, right?
Well, it just so happens that they caught J. Edgar Hoover and his boyfriend in a very compromising position during a stay that they had in a bathroom in the men’s room. And, they held it over his head, and that might have been at least one of other things they had on him. But he would never, never admit to it.
Even in the face of everything, he would never admit to it until he was finally forced and he had to. And even then, you know, he didn’t go after with a vengeance. He didn’t declare war on the mob. It was Bobby Kennedy that did that. He wouldn’t do it. And he was really at odds with Kennedy over it. They really were, you know, fighting over it.
As a matter of fact, Robert Kennedy was fighting with John and his father. Cause both John Kennedy and his father did not want Robert Kennedy to go after the mob. He did it anyway. So interesting. The whereabouts of Jimmy Hoffa’s remains have been a mystery for decades. Can you give us the details of what you do know about his death and where his body might be?
One thing I know for sure, the hit did come out of New York and that was ordered by Tony Salerno. That I know for a fact. Now, I’ll set this up briefly again because these are long stories. Very good friend of mine, Colombo guy, comes out of jail about seven years ago. He was away for a long time. Michael, I got to see it.
I go into New York. I sit down with him and he says, listen, there’s a person that you know, very well, that I did a lot of time with and wants me to relay this story to you. I said, what is it about? He said, well, he was one of the. Shooters in the Hoffa case. And I said, well, where’s the body? Because without the body, it’s just another story.
And he tells me basically where the body is. He said, Michael, it’s wet. And here’s what it is. I said, listen, why does the guy tell me this? Because if you ever sell the story, he’s never coming out of jail, but he knows you’ll take care of his family. Okay, great. This guy happened to be dying. You know, the guy that was bringing it to me got cancer.
I said, I need you to put this all on tape. So he puts it on tape, gives it to me. I still have it. Never done anything with it. Now I had a production company. When I mentioned it to them, they said, Michael, we’ll spend a million dollars looking for the body, even if we don’t find it. So what? It’s a great story.
And I said, I’m not doing that. I said, I have these tapes if, and when something comes up where they become appropriate to reveal, I’ll do it. But until then, there’s, there’s really nothing to say. Very, very fascinating. Michael, I had to ask you about that. Now, I do want to ask you about this. I find this very interesting.
Now, you, you do discuss various mob movies. You know, you’ve discussed it with me. I know you talk about it on, on your YouTube channel and you sometimes relate personal experiences regarding the accuracy of many of them. This is very interesting. You recently talked about the Godfather and a new revelation that when Marlon Brando was preparing for his part, he called Russell Buffalino, right?
Who is Russell Buffalino and what do you know about that? Well, yeah, very interesting. As a matter of fact, a fellow by the name of William D’Elia, who I’ll be sitting with next month, wrote a book and he was Russell Buffalino’s right hand man. And Russ was a boss up in upstate New York and Pennsylvania.
As a matter of fact, if you’ve seen the movie, The Irishman, Joe Pesci played his role there and played it fantastically, by the way, because I knew Russ, met with him several times. I didn’t know this. He was the one that said that it was Marlon Brando that looked to Russell Buffalino for preparation for the role and that Russell actually helped him get the role.
but yeah, it was fascinating because I didn’t know the connection between Marlon Brando and Russ and Russ was a guy of substance. You know, he was a heavyweight in that life portrayed again, extremely well by Joe Pesci and the Irishman. So, yeah, excited about that and, I’ll be getting into that a little bit more when I sit down with William.
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In Marlon Brando’s character… In The Godfather, he portrayed, you know, a strong but quiet leader, right? can you draw parallels between his role and the qualities of a great boss and leader in the business world? Well, I thought, you know, he was brilliant in that role, and he was the epitome of what a boss should act like, and, and the way he should carry himself, you know?
Because, you know, a lot of times guys are portrayed in these movies like they’re thugs. And you know, stupid, I have to say it, just wild man going around killing everybody. That’s not the case at all. You know, look at John for a minute. I mean, look, when he walked down the street, John had charisma. You know, he was the embodiment of charisma in that life.
A little too outspoken, a little too flashy, and so on and so forth. But most of the guys that were bosses, and most of the guys that were substantial capos, that’s how they carried themselves. Not like the, you know, the thugs that they’re portrayed to be. You look at Luciano, you look at Costello, you know, these are guys that held themselves.
They had charisma, they held themselves the right way. So there was a lot of that. You know, when I say this, you know, David, a lot of guys, if they weren’t in that life, they would have been successful anywhere because they were smart. Look, I say this all the time about that life. Cosa Nostra in this country existed for about a hundred years under some very difficult conditions.
And not only did they exist. They had so much power and control. We did, you know, from the man on the street and the numbers business, right up to the white house, you know, you control the unions in the country, which we did, you control the country. You have two and a half million teamsters. You call a strike, everything shuts down.
And why is that power? Very simple. What do politicians want? They want two things. They want money and they want votes. You control the unions. We give you two and a half million votes. That’s substance. We have pension funds worth billions of dollars. We can help fund your campaigns and do what you need to do.
That’s power and we had it. So you don’t get that by being a dumb thug or some guy on the street that’s murdering people all the time. It doesn’t happen that way. You got to give credit where credit is due. No, absolutely. I appreciate your breakdown there. I did want to ask you about this and then we’ll get to your current projects, but Further to the conversation about corruption, because we’ve talked extensively about that.
You have talked about corruption in sports. I know you’re heavily involved in that, but I’ve always wanted to ask you, can you share your insights on which sports were the easiest to fix and why? Well, obviously, you know, basketball is easy. Why? Five men on the court. You have a referee that if you can get to the referee or he gets himself into a gambling problem, you know this, it’s remember it’s never about winning or losing.
It’s about the point spread. That’s what matters. So you have a referee that you have control over. You know that he can call a foul every time they go down the court or he doesn’t have to call it. He can miss it. And that has a tremendous impact on the spread. Tremendous impact. You know, I mentioned players that are not here anymore.
You take Kobe Bryant Lakers back then favored to win by 10 points. Well, how do you shave that? Very simple. Put Kobe on the bench for a couple of minutes, you know, put the main of players on the bench and all of a sudden you manipulate that spread. So they don’t win by 10, they win by six. Well, if you’re gambling, you’re a winner.
If you, if you bet the spread, you know what I mean? So, easy, obviously tennis. You got one player, very, very simple. And you know, there was a lot of issues in tennis. I spoke to a lot of tennis players throughout my speaking career. so they’re the easiest, you know, football, obviously again, remember it’s always about the spread.
If you have a major guy. You have a quarterback, you have a running back, you have a wide receiver. you can manipulate that spread fairly easy. And remember, you don’t always look at one game. You try to have somebody over a period of games. And if you have them doing your bidding, you can come out pretty good.
What about boxing? Well, boxing, yeah, obviously, it’s one on one. You know, I don’t think you see that as much now. You know, back in the day when we had control over fighters, you saw people taking dives, no doubt. but I think it’s cleaned up quite a bit today. I had a huge investigation on me, myself and Don King, about, you know, organized crimes, control over the boxing industry.
Fortunately, it went nowhere. they tried, but they couldn’t indict us. But, yeah, it… Back then it was big, not so much today. They, weren’t they trying to frame you, but they got recordings of Don King? They pinched him, didn’t they? No, no, no, they, he got pinched on an unrelated case. Actually, the tapes that they had, that they had on me, I gave to Don, and that helped him beat his case, because it showed that the government was trying to get him.
Yeah. So, yeah, he thanked me a lot for that. Interesting. Okay, let’s talk about your current projects, Michael. I know how busy you are. I know you’re off to another continent, in a few hours. you’ve launched a wine label, Francie’s Wines. Tell us about what’s happening with Francie’s Wines right now.
Well, very, very excited, Dave. And it’s very appropriate that we talk about it because we’re moving steadily throughout the United States and various, states. We just got licensed in 41 states and we’re getting to every one of them. We’re very big in California, now Ohio, Michigan, going into Louisiana, but even more exciting for where you are, we’re in Canada now and we’re in Ontario.
Yes, we have a big distributor and start looking for us in markets. It’s Franzese wine. We have some great products. Here’s the backstory. This is Armenian wine. And you probably don’t know this, but Armenia was the birthplace of wine in the new civilization, after the flood. And so the first wine batch in the new civilization came out of Armenia.
It’s big in Europe, big in Eastern Europe, and now we brought it into the United States. My partner is an Armenian. We have a huge vineyard in Armenia for the last 25 years. So we’re very excited about it. And people are really taking to the wine. We have an Arrheni, which is like a Pinot Noir. We have a Malbec.
We have a Sauvignon Blanc. And we have something that we cannot keep on the shelf. It’s a pomegranate wine. It’s more like a tart wine, but David, we can’t get enough of it. Yeah. I hope Canada got a few bottles. Like where Toronto, are we talking specifically Toronto or we’re talking about Ontario. So it’s just, we just signed a deal with the distributor about two months ago.
So they’re starting to bring it to all of their accounts. So it’s in markets, look for it and ask for it. If it’s not there yet, you know, ask for it and they’ll get it in. It’s a big distributor that we have. So. Well, I’m very excited about it. But again, more information, franziswine. com. You can see everything you need to know about it.
And I’ve been, you know, this is not, it’s not a name only. I’ve been pretty active in, in the brand itself. We’ve been doing a lot of marketing and if they let me back in Canada, I don’t know if you know, this has happened, David, you know, first time, last time I had speaking events, a couple of months ago, they wouldn’t let me in.
What? Yeah. They turned me away at the border. What was the reason? Other than, other than that you were an underboss in the Colombo crime family. Exactly. But for the past 10 years, they’ve been letting me in. I go through all the motions. I get my visa. I do everything responsibly, do it the right way. And this particular time, I have to say it.
We had some just they weren’t nice border patrol. I mean, immigration agents. And I said, but you’ve let me in over the past 10 years. Nothing has changed. As a matter of fact, I’m a better person now. You know, I got all your people. You’re gonna you’re going to be hurting the people that have brought me in.
Yeah, thousands of people. I’m going to be speaking in front of them. They didn’t want to know anything. So what they told me and what I’m in the process of doing now, after, if you’ve been clean for 10 years, you’re allowed to apply for permanent residency, meaning I can go in and out whenever I want. So they told me to do that.
I had to hire a lawyer now she’s doing that. Cause my last conviction was 30 years ago. So hopefully, by January, cause I have more dates and, the distributor wants me up there to stop marketing and promoting the wine. I think I’ll get in. Oh, listen, you have to give us a heads up on that. You have to, we’ll make the trip, for sure.
I think that would be fantastic. I got to come see you in LA as well. I, this is crazy to your excursion. to Cuba to Cuba. Tell us what that’s all about. What are you doing in Cuba, Michael? I’m again, very, very excited. I was approached by a very substantial tour group that is December 8th, 9th and 10th of this year, three nights, four days.
We’re bringing a group of people into Cuba. And we are going to go over the whole history of the mob in Cuba, during those three days and I’m going to lead that delegation and we’re going to the Hotel Nacional where the big, I don’t know if you know this, but the biggest conference, prior to them coming into Vegas was in Cuba, where we had casinos, we had hotels.
We had a lot of business going on there. Luciano was there, he set up shop, Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel, Genovese, huge conference there. Meyer Lansky bought the Riviera Hotel, opened up the first big casino down there. There is a huge mob history in Havana. And we’re going there and I’m, we’re going to be going day by day to all the different spots.
I’m going to be telling the stories. We’ve got a tremendous, tremendous, detour involved in that. And so please, you know, continue to talk about it because anybody that’s interested, we’re going to have a great, this is a once in a lifetime deal. No question about it. Nobody’s ever going to do this again.
And, and it’s top notch everything is first class, everything that they’re doing, or I wouldn’t be involved in it, but, you’re going to get the Cuban culture and the mob culture at the same time. And, you know, when they were finally after the revolution or during the revolution, that’s when everybody left.
You know, jump ship and went into Vegas, but a great history there that we’re going to talk about. I’m very excited. And I know those spots are filling up. So anybody interested, you’ll see the link here, you know, jump on, get all the information and hopefully I’ll see you in Cuba. Incredible. and Michael, you know, your YouTube channel is blowing up.
I mean, you’re very popular online now. you have an upcoming event with Mike Tyson. What’s that all about? Yeah, we’re on January 25th. The title of the event is Remade Men, and it’s myself, Mike Tyson, and Chas Palminteri, my dear friend, is going to kind of emcee this. And basically, Mike and I have gotten together as two guys that have been through a lot of challenges, have remade ourselves in a way.
And, Mike is at a point in his life where he wants to lead, leave a positive legacy, and so do I. So this is going to be designed around telling our stories, but we’re going to take it a step further and put a platform together where we’re going to be mentors, and we’ve got a group of people that want to join in with us on this, and hopefully to create a platform that’s going to help a lot of young men and women.
not only develop themselves personally in their careers, but also in their business life. We have a lot of people jumping on board with us. So it all kicks off on January 25th in New York at the Beacon Theater, and we’re going to take this show around the world. And, we’re very excited about it.
Mike is totally committed. So am I. Chaz, I love the guy. He’s jumped on board and we got a lot of good people. So January 25th, Beacon Theater in New York City. I know the tickets are going fast on that. So anybody interested in seeing it, we’re not too far from you in New York. Come in and we’re going to have a VIP thing.
Enjoy, you know, getting together with people in the back of the room later on. Going to be a good time, but more than that, it’s going to be a good project for both of us. Yeah, it sounds like a very worthy project, a fascinating, it’s nice when, you know, people thinking about legacy and leaving a positive mark and talking to people like yourself and, you know, speaking of which, you know, considering the incredible, you know, journey you’ve been on the life you’ve lived, Michael, and all you’ve gone through, I know you’re someone who’s deeply, you know, introspective and thankful.
For where you are as a 72 year old. And this is something that I pay close attention to now. Can you give us your thoughts on the importance of gratitude and having a daily practice of being thankful? You know, David, I know this is cliched, but I want people, you know, to understand where I’m coming from.
There was a time in my life. Where financially, you know, I had it all, you know, I had all the money I could ever spend in my life for me and my children and my grandchildren, jet plane, helicopter houses in different parts of the country. you know, a crew of men under me that would do my bidding. I had it all in that regard.
And yeah, it was satisfying back then. And I don’t want to use the cliche that something was missing. I don’t know that anything was missing. I was also a major target of law enforcement, so I had to balance things out. And I was in a volatile life. But after that is all over, I did my jail time, I come home, and I start speaking to people, encouraging them, giving my testimony and my story.
And I can tell you this, it has become so much more gratifying and satisfying for me to give. Then it is to receive because the receiving that I get now is, is from people telling me, Michael, you’ve had such a positive influence on my life. Michael, my life has changed. Michael, I’ve heard your story. And a lot of these people, I don’t even know who they are.
They’re just hearing me. And it’s become a, a, it’s my motivator. It’s what keeps me going. One of the major questions I got, and I guarantee people in your audience are thinking the same thing. Michael, with all the things you did on the street, how did you forgive yourself? And I say to people, you know, before you can forgive others, and forgiveness is great because revenge and anger is a terrible burden to carry around, you have to forgive yourself.
And I have to attribute that to my Christian faith that’s built on the foundation of forgiveness. That’s why Christ died on the cross, for forgiveness. So you have to realize, you have to forgive yourself and put that in the past. And then you can go on and be productive in your life. And then you can look at things in a different way.
Then you can have forgiveness. You know, I don’t know if you know this, you probably, well, you don’t know this, because it just happened. I, I was in prison, visiting in prison with David Berkowitz, the son of Sam, and it’s going to be a big video. He wanted to meet me because he had read my book in prison and he’s transformed himself.
And when you talk about forgiveness, I don’t want to, I don’t want to, you know, reveal the story now because we’re working on it, but it’s an amazing story. So he read your book and reached out and now you go and meet with him in prison for hours to talk about, I’m not sure what, what was the biggest takeaway?
My takeaway there again, it’s, it’s about forgiveness. It’s about reality. If somebody is really transformed. And I said to him, I said, David, let me tell you something. I said, the hardest thing in the world is to forgive somebody that took away a family member. I said, that would be hard for me. And I’m a Christian.
I don’t know. I should show. No excuses. No nothing. I got to put that right up front. And if people are angry after this, I understand it. And he said, Michael, I get it. I said, would you expect to get out of prison? He said, never. He said, and I don’t deserve to. I have to face the consequences. He had stopped going to his parole hearings.
Because he knew they were worthless. So he goes to the parole hearings just to be respectful to the parole board. Not because he expects parole. But anyway, you know, I had to get into the prison, number one. So I finally got that done. And then they let me bring a camera in there. So this is all recorded.
Interesting. Was that your first time back in a prison since you left? No, no, no. I’ve been, I’ve been visiting prisons, really ministry wise, you know, speaking to a lot of inmates, for the last 20 years. So, but the, you know, the feds won’t let me in. I have to go to all the state prisons, the feds, because I was a federal prison.
Wow. Full circle. Yeah. You know, you know how I know this, this interview is meant to be Michael. You’re the one that I’ve spoken in depth with about, King Solomon, right? One of the wisest, greatest leaders who ever lived Kings this morning. This morning, out of the blue, I had a conversation with somebody who was telling me that the actual wealth that Solomon had, I don’t know if you’ve heard this estimation, but the actual wealth that King Solomon had back then translated into U.
dollars by today’s standards, 1. 2 trillion dollars. 1. 2 trillion. If you were to… Right, the equivalency in US dollars, 1. 2 trillion, literally the richest man who ever lived at all time. I found that fascinating and that was this morning and I knew because I talked to you, I’m like, this was meant to, we had to talk about this, but I didn’t know if you heard that number before.
I’d never heard that 1. 2 trillion. I’ve never heard that, but I’ve always, been under the impression that he was the richest man that ever lived. And just so you know, it was Solomon’s verses in Proverbs that had the major impact on me. Two of them, you know, one of them right here, Proverbs 16, 7, and then Proverbs 3, 5, and 6.
So I, I have him right there in front of me all the time to remind me of how blessed I am and what an impact he’s had on me. But yeah, yeah, it was meant to be. No, no doubt, David. And listen, I enjoy talking to you. Yeah, right. Michael is always what a pleasure to speak with you again. Really appreciate you taking the time to sit down with us again.
Thank you. You know, I’m just really grateful to have you on the show and very thankful. So I appreciate that. Where do you want the people to find you, Michael? Best thing is YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, that’s now X, you know, Facebook, I’m all over the place. And, of course, franzyswine. com, we’d love for you to look in on that.
And then, the whole Cuba thing, anybody that’s interested in having a really, impactful and once in a lifetime three days, three, three nights, four days, I think, we’ll put up the link and hopefully I’ll see you there. And, and you’re gonna be in my presence, that’s it. I’m gonna be leading the whole thing all three days, so it’s gonna be fun.
